<div class="gmail_quote">On Thu, Sep 24, 2009 at 2:04 AM, Aniello Del Sorbo <span dir="ltr"><<a href="mailto:anidel@gmail.com">anidel@gmail.com</a>></span> wrote:<br><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="border-left: 1px solid rgb(204, 204, 204); margin: 0pt 0pt 0pt 0.8ex; padding-left: 1ex;">
It would have been even better if that was made in the public.<br>
<br>
Aniello<br></blockquote><div><br>Aniello,<br><br>It was made in the public. And there's still time for you to contribute!<br><br>Please see this <a href="http://talk.maemo.org">talk.maemo.org</a> thread:<br><br>Summit 09: Call for Input for Ari Jaaksi dialog<br>
<a href="http://talk.maemo.org/showthread.php?t=30120">http://talk.maemo.org/showthread.php?t=30120</a><br><br>The e-mail that was accidentally "leaked" was just asking for some final input from other Summit contributors who will be also discussing similar things in their talks.<br>
<br>Also, I want my final talk to be a little bit of a surprise, even though you get a very good overall idea from that thread.<br><br>It would be somewhat ironic if I was secretly doing something about open source.<br><br>
Alan "qole" Bruce<br><br> </div><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="border-left: 1px solid rgb(204, 204, 204); margin: 0pt 0pt 0pt 0.8ex; padding-left: 1ex;">
2009/9/24 Sebastian 'CrashandDie' Lauwers <<a href="mailto:crashanddie@gmail.com">crashanddie@gmail.com</a>>:<br>
<div><div></div><div class="h5">> Good to see some posts are harvested to fuel whatever. (Summit<br>
> questions? Blog post?)<br>
><br>
> Also, Randall, your email requesting deletion is sadly not going to<br>
> happen -- the mailing lists are archived publicly.<br>
><br>
> -S.<br>
><br>
><br>
> On 23/09/2009, Qole <<a href="mailto:qole.tablet@gmail.com">qole.tablet@gmail.com</a>> wrote:<br>
>> If that seems like someone accidentally sent a private e-mail to a public<br>
>> mailing-list right in the middle of a long discussion, with no context and<br>
>> no indicators as to what all of that was about...<br>
>><br>
>> You'd be right.<br>
>><br>
>><br>
>> On Wed, Sep 23, 2009 at 2:19 PM, Randall Arnold <<a href="mailto:texrat@ovi.com">texrat@ovi.com</a>> wrote:<br>
>><br>
>>> ...and you now poke the biggest, ugliest stick of all into the hornets'<br>
>>> nest: *roadmaps*.<br>
>>><br>
>>> There's no way to make this issue black and white so we have been arguing<br>
>>> on what shade of grey it should be. This is one of those confounding<br>
>>> dilemmas where extreme views on either side have equal merit.<br>
>>><br>
>>> The problem for Nokia is, somehow this stumbling bloick MUST be eliminated<br>
>>> or development will persist in some quasi state satisfactory to neither<br>
>>> the<br>
>>> company nor the community.<br>
>>><br>
>>> But ultimately all we as a community can do is<br>
>>> beg/whine/argue/recommend/protest. SOMEone in Nokia must decide what<br>
>>> roadmaps should look like and when/how they are released. That also<br>
>>> brings<br>
>>> in the lawyers.<br>
>>><br>
>>> Ay yi yi...<br>
>>><br>
>>> -Randy<br>
>>><br>
>>><br>
>>> ----- Original message -----<br>
>>> From: "Alan Bruce" <<a href="mailto:alan@thebruces.ca">alan@thebruces.ca</a>><br>
>>> To: "Randall Arnold" <<a href="mailto:texrat@ovi.com">texrat@ovi.com</a>><br>
>>> Subject: Re: A 'red thread' through talks at maemo summit<br>
>>> Date: Wed, 23 Sep 2009 12:05:40 -0700<br>
>>><br>
>>> Whoah, I've just doubled the size of my text by adding all the good<br>
>>> questions and comments from the t.m.o thread.<br>
>>><br>
>>> Here's the part of my text that has changed:<br>
>>><br>
>>> Harmattan / The future<br>
>>><br>
>>> - What kind of changes do you plan to make in the future to better work<br>
>>> with the community?<br>
>>> - Would Nokia consider giving end-of-life versions of Maemo to the<br>
>>> community to maintain? Or does Nokia expect the community to<br>
>>> exclusively use<br>
>>> parallel versions of Maemo, like Mer, if the community wishes to take<br>
>>> control after Nokia ends support?<br>
>>> - Now that Maemo Devices controls the software and the hardware, will<br>
>>> the hardware become more open-source? Will there be processes for the<br>
>>> community to contribute to hardware design?<br>
>>><br>
>>> *High Level Open Source vs. Closed Source Discussion*<br>
>>> *(the same)<br>
>>> **<br>
>>> Questions from the community:*<br>
>>><br>
>>> *Jaffa:*<br>
>>> Accepting that some things need to be kept behind closed doors for<br>
>>> commercial reasons, when are Nokia engineers going to be operating in the<br>
>>> community for everything *else*? We'd like to see API design discussions<br>
>>> in advance, on maemo-developers, as well as an open, common bugzilla and<br>
>>> code repository. For example, we discovered the Fremantle "third party<br>
>>> package policy" when people started having problems. And that's in an<br>
>>> open,<br>
>>> community-involved package like Application Manager.<br>
>>><br>
>>> *Discussion between Jaffa/ragnar*:<br>
>>><br>
>>> - *Jaffa:* [W]e've already seen what happens with Hildon when well<br>
>>> intentioned developers go away for 18 months and then come back with a<br>
>>> beta<br>
>>> which has a practically fixed API, which lots of developers immediately<br>
>>> start finding inconsistencies, edge cases, over-zealous specialisms vs.<br>
>>> over<br>
>>> generalisations.<br>
>>> The only valid answer I can see is the one we've heard before:<br>
>>> "exposing this information for external comment from the community will<br>
>>> reveal too much of our future plans".<br>
>>> This is a fine answer. But, of course, there's then no hint of<br>
>>> roadmaps, design principles (not in the UX sense) or architecture plans<br>
>>> on<br>
>>> which the community can contribute. So, no contributions means the<br>
>>> cycle<br>
>>> continues and products which could've had free consultancy services<br>
>>> from an<br>
>>> empassioned expert community are shipped in a sub-optimal state.<br>
>>><br>
>>><br>
>>> - *ragnar:* Generally UI's are not revealed in advance because of<br>
>>> competitive reasons. If we would have shown the Maemo 5 UI plans at the<br>
>>> time<br>
>>> they were ready for the first time, any smart competitor would have not<br>
>>> commented anything on them, picked up on the good ideas, disregarded<br>
>>> others<br>
>>> and probably even come out with their own device before Nokia. Then end<br>
>>> consumers - who don't know and care about the process of how things get<br>
>>> done<br>
>>> - would be just left confused. Showing our own cards is a very basic<br>
>>> problem, and I hope everybody realizes that. We will be the first<br>
>>> company<br>
>>> out with the device with the Maemo 5 UI. If you wouldn't believe your<br>
>>> UI is<br>
>>> an competitive advantage and therefore don't care about that fact, then<br>
>>> we<br>
>>> can all go home already.<br>
>>><br>
>>><br>
>>> So, either you hold your cards really close to your chest, or you then do<br>
>>> the complete opposite, and do like Mozilla, and open up everything all the<br>
>>> time, right from the start. If Nokia = Maemo and nothing more, and if<br>
>>> Nokia<br>
>>> could crank devices out faster than any competitor, then perhaps there<br>
>>> would<br>
>>> be more options. But since Nokia > just Maemo, even Maemo does not work in<br>
>>> a<br>
>>> bubble. Revealing some parts of Maemo UI would reveal ... elements of<br>
>>> "Nokia<br>
>>> UI" - see that however you want.<br>
>>><br>
>>> Well, yes, external consultancy costs money. But it can also offer<br>
>>> consistency, with testing methodology, target user gathering, non-biased<br>
>>> testers, consistent reporting metrics etc. etc. So they're not really<br>
>>> comparative. You wouldn't replace one with the other.<br>
>>><br>
>>> Could you - or anybody - can come up with a good (as in realistic and<br>
>>> pragmatic instead of idealistic) proposal on how to 'do' community input<br>
>>> regarding the new UI?<br>
>>><br>
>>> ...[I]f we would show the whole plans, and then get n comments on it, ...<br>
>>> Would following the democratic majority of the developer community lead to<br>
>>> an optimal solution in terms of an UI solution? Wouldn't that be the worst<br>
>>> kind of "design by committee" that one could imagine? Do a poll for<br>
>>> "Feature<br>
>>> X, do solution A or solution B" and vote which solution gets more votes?<br>
>>> No?<br>
>>><br>
>>><br>
>>> *Milhouse:*<br>
>>> In three years, I've seen little real progress, just lots of promises to<br>
>>> improve which never really materialise. I can count the number of<br>
>>> Nokia/Maemo developers actively involved in Bugzilla on one hand. Intel<br>
>>> puts<br>
>>> Nokia to shame with the amount of involvement from Intel engineers in the<br>
>>> Moblin bugzilla. Why is Intel able to achieve a much greater level of<br>
>>> transparency than Nokia when discussing defects and enhancements? Intel<br>
>>> appear willing to publicly file, and more importantly discuss, the bugs in<br>
>>> their product whereas Nokia prefer to keep their dirty laundry a secret<br>
>>> and<br>
>>> are doing a very good job of ignoring those bugs raised by the community.<br>
>>> There is little if any direct input from Nokia developers against publicly<br>
>>> filed bugs, many of which are closed as WONTFIX when the respective OS<br>
>>> version is end-of-lined.<br>
>>><br>
>>><br>
>>> *jaem:*<br>
>>> One of the strengths of Maemo is its community, largely drawn by the<br>
>>> relative openness and hackability of the Maemo devices. In light of<br>
>>> announced plans for a more mass-market approach, and potentially future<br>
>>> Linux-based smartphone devices (e.g. oFono), how does Nokia plan to<br>
>>> balance<br>
>>> maintaining openness with the opposing pressures typically inherent in<br>
>>> such<br>
>>> plans?<br>
>>><br>
>>><br>
>>> *lma:*<br>
>>> What happened since "It is not a cell phone -- and it is<br>
>>> good<<a href="http://jaaksi.blogspot.com/2005/11/it-is-not-cell-phone-and-it-is-good.html" target="_blank">http://jaaksi.blogspot.com/2005/11/it-is-not-cell-phone-and-it-is-good.html</a>>"<br>
>>> to change your mind? Are those reasons not valid any more, or are there<br>
>>> more<br>
>>> compelling reasons (and if so, what) pushing in the opposite direction?<br>
>>> The<br>
>>> compromises/sacrifices necessary to turn a tablet into a phone (finger UI,<br>
>>> screen size and so on) have been very controversial here [on the forums];<br>
>>> does Nokia plan to still address the market segment that prefers a tablet<br>
>>> to<br>
>>> a phone?<br>
>>><br>
>>><br>
>>> *benny1967*:<br>
>>><br>
>>> - how much community input could nokia handle concerning *hardware*?<br>
>>> could they envision that some day a future product is designed via a<br>
>>> bugzilla-system, with people voting for enhancement requests about<br>
>>> hardware?<br>
>>> could there be something like a community edition of existing mass<br>
>>> market<br>
>>> products that differs in things like screen size or keyboard layout etc<br>
>>> according to the wishes of a reasonably large part of the community?<br>
>>> - How does the maemo community live up to Nokia's expectations? Are<br>
>>> there still things that must be done internally (or don't happen at<br>
>>> all)<br>
>>> because the community fails to deliver?<br>
>>> - On the business side, is dealing with the community in general more<br>
>>> expensive/difficult than handling uncoordinated customer feedback?<br>
>>><br>
>>> *ARJWright:*<br>
>>> Nokia seems to be going in two directions: the transition from a device to<br>
>>> a services company with Ovi; and the transition to the new open source<br>
>>> Symbian and Maemo. Is "mobile" really the best arena for a company which<br>
>>> is<br>
>>> basing its value on services and the relationships that it has maintained?<br>
>>> Or, from Nokia's perspective, do these transitions to open source and<br>
>>> services-orientation point to a key element of technology-as-culture that<br>
>>> we<br>
>>> miss because we don't have the same view that a company such as Nokia has?<br>
>>> If the latter, can you elaborate on what Nokia sees, and why this<br>
>>> viewpoint<br>
>>> is significant for a community like Maemo to understand.<br>
>>><br>
>>><br>
>>> *Texrat:*<br>
>>><br>
>>> The community really desires *some* sort of development/release roadmap<br>
>>> for Maemo hardware and software. We understand that Nokia cannot be *<br>
>>> completely* forthcoming due to competitive needs, but can't at least *some<br>
>>> * degree of rough guidance be provided?<br>
>>><br>
>>><br>
>>><br>
>>> On Wed, Sep 23, 2009 at 11:10 AM, Randall Arnold <<a href="mailto:texrat@ovi.com">texrat@ovi.com</a>> wrote:<br>
>>><br>
>>>> Excellent point, and one I actually raised 3 years ago and have harped on<br>
>>>> so much since that it did not occur to me to raise it again. : D<br>
>>>><br>
>>>><br>
>>>><br>
>>>> ----- Original message -----<br>
>>>> From: "Alan Bruce" <<a href="mailto:alan@thebruces.ca">alan@thebruces.ca</a>><br>
>>>> To: "Carsten Munk" <<a href="mailto:carsten.munk@gmail.com">carsten.munk@gmail.com</a>><br>
>>>> Subject: Re: A 'red thread' through talks at maemo summit<br>
>>>><br>
>>>> Date: Wed, 23 Sep 2009 10:34:21 -0700<br>
>>>><br>
>>>> Carsten, you're right. I just re-read my thread at t.m.o. and jaffa asks<br>
>>>> the same question:<br>
>>>><br>
>>>> Jaffa: Accepting that some things need to be kept behind closed doors for<br>
>>>> commercial reasons, when are Nokia engineers going to be operating in the<br>
>>>> community for everything *else*? (For example, we discovered the<br>
>>>> Fremantle "third party package policy" when people started having<br>
>>>> problems.<br>
>>>> And that's in an open, community-involved package like Application<br>
>>>> Manager.)<br>
>>>><br>
>>>><br>
>>>><br>
>>>> On Wed, Sep 23, 2009 at 12:22 AM, Carsten Munk<br>
>>>> <<a href="mailto:carsten.munk@gmail.com">carsten.munk@gmail.com</a>>wrote:<br>
>>>><br>
>>>>> Loving the questions. Maybe a question on getting internal developers<br>
>>>>> out<br>
>>>>> in the open - open source happens by doing things in the open as well.<br>
>>>>><br>
>>>>> Regards,<br>
>>>>> Carsten<br>
>>>>><br>
>>>>><br>
>>>>><br>
>>><br>
>>><br>
>>><br>
>>> --------------------------------------------------------------<br>
>>> Ovi Store: New apps daily<br>
>>> <a href="http://store.ovi.com/?cid=ovistore-fw-bac-na-acq-na-ovimail-g0-na-3" target="_blank">http://store.ovi.com/?cid=ovistore-fw-bac-na-acq-na-ovimail-g0-na-3</a><br>
>>><br>
>>> _______________________________________________<br>
>>> maemo-community mailing list<br>
>>> <a href="mailto:maemo-community@maemo.org">maemo-community@maemo.org</a><br>
>>> <a href="https://lists.maemo.org/mailman/listinfo/maemo-community" target="_blank">https://lists.maemo.org/mailman/listinfo/maemo-community</a><br>
>>><br>
>>><br>
>><br>
>><br>
>> --<br>
>> enthusiast, n. "One whose mind is wholly possessed and heated by what<br>
>> engages it; one who is influenced by a peculiar fervor of mind; an ardent<br>
>> and imaginative person."<br>
>><br>
><br>
> --<br>
> Sent from my mobile device<br>
><br>
> question = ( to ) ? be : ! be;<br>
> -- Wm. Shakespeare<br>
> _______________________________________________<br>
> maemo-community mailing list<br>
> <a href="mailto:maemo-community@maemo.org">maemo-community@maemo.org</a><br>
> <a href="https://lists.maemo.org/mailman/listinfo/maemo-community" target="_blank">https://lists.maemo.org/mailman/listinfo/maemo-community</a><br>
><br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
</div></div>--<br>
<font color="#888888"><br>
--<br>
anidel<br>
</font><div><div></div><div class="h5">_______________________________________________<br>
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<a href="mailto:maemo-community@maemo.org">maemo-community@maemo.org</a><br>
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</div></div></blockquote></div><br><br clear="all"><br>-- <br>enthusiast, n. "One whose mind is wholly possessed and heated by what engages it; one who is influenced by a peculiar fervor of mind; an ardent and imaginative person."<br>