Hi Timo, thanks to volunteer as a Supertester. I think Rob (SD69) could grant you Tester permissions without the need to involve any nokians.<div><br></div><div>Regarding your comments, please see above.</div><div><br></div>
<div>Regards<br><br><div class="gmail_quote">2012/4/3 Timo Härkönen <span dir="ltr"><<a href="mailto:timop.harkonen@gmail.com">timop.harkonen@gmail.com</a>></span><br><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">
Hi<br><br><div class="gmail_quote">3. huhtikuuta 2012 11.31 Iván Gálvez Junquera <span dir="ltr"><<a href="mailto:ivgalvez@gmail.com" target="_blank">ivgalvez@gmail.com</a>></span> kirjoitti:<div class="im"><br><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">
Hi,<div><br></div><div>The Supertester initiative is discussed in the testing-squad mailing list and also at TMO.</div><div><br></div><div>Anyway, I'll repost the summary here for those not subscribed to that mailing list:</div>
</blockquote></div><div><br><br>
Thanks for this<br> </div><div class="im"><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0pt 0pt 0pt 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex">
<div><br></div><div><div><div><b><br>Rationale:</b></div><div>Lack of testers and maintainers for applications has derived in a lot of applications getting stuck at Extras Testing even if they are suitable for promotion.</div>
<div><br></div><div><div style="color:rgb(80,0,80)"><div>We have even reach a situation in which most applications are not even promoted by their developers to Testing (from Devel) due to the difficulty to promote to Extras. The whole promotion system is perceived as useless.</div>
</div></div></div></div></blockquote></div><div><br>For some extend I agree. Anyway, I'm holding back something in devel for a simple reason because I think the package isn't ready for testing, etc. Hopefully I'm not the only one holding back because of this reason. Anyway, I personally woudn't remove the testing gate for applications. People who don't mind the rough edges, broken package scripts, reflashing, etc. have already enabled devel and this is a no issue for them. When a package is in the extras I'd expect it to be stable (YMMV). If promoting is made easier also there needs to be easy machanism to remove broken stuff from extras since the easy promotions will lead to more broken stuff getting through.<br>
</div></div></blockquote><div><br></div><div>The idea is not to promote directly from Devel to Testing in any way. Packages should have to pass quarantine and get votes in testing to be promoted as always.</div><div><br></div>
<div>Indeed a mechanism to remove broken packages is also needed and asked for. We have currently some cases of broken packages that should be removed or at least downgraded due to different reasons and right now, there is no one in the community able to do so apart from the original maintainer.</div>
<div><br></div><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"><div class="gmail_quote"><div><br>Other than that, I though we already had a supertester system in place where a package needs less votes from supertesters that from regular testers to be able to be promoted? Why isn't that good enough? The thing needed is people to do something instread of whining. To put my money where my mouth is, I am volunteering myself as a supertester. I think I have some merit to be able to act as one since my day job is doing software QA (tools), have a background in Maemo/MeeGo QA and I am involved in Mer's QA automation effort. Please note that I take quality seriously and will not settle for "good enough". Also will not be available 24/7. I will have time to work on this a couple of hours a week.<br>
</div></div></blockquote><div><br></div><div>OK, number of votes could be kept, at least if we have enough people contributing, but the Council should be able to change that if needed. </div><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">
<div class="gmail_quote"><div> </div><div class="im"><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0pt 0pt 0pt 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"><div><div><div><div style="color:rgb(80,0,80)">
<div><br></div><div><b>Solution:</b></div></div></div></div><div><div style="margin-top:5px;margin-right:0px;margin-bottom:5px;margin-left:0px"><span style="color:rgb(80,0,80)">Considering that Maemo community is shrinking, we cannot continue with the actual process. We need to both fix some issues in the whole process of promotion and also grant more administrative privileges to Supertesters.</span></div>
<div style="color:rgb(80,0,80)"><div><br></div></div></div></div></blockquote></div><div><br>IMO the process is pretty good as it is if it's still working as documented here: <a href="http://wiki.maemo.org/Extras-testing#Promotion" target="_blank">http://wiki.maemo.org/Extras-testing#Promotion</a> dunno if the 3 votes needed from supertesters is implemented or not. Could someone comment on it? </div>
</div></blockquote><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"><div class="gmail_quote"><div>
</div><div class="im"><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0pt 0pt 0pt 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"><div><div><div style="color:rgb(80,0,80)"><div></div><div><b>New members proposed as Supertesters:</b></div>
<div>These people have been suggested to become new Supertesters:</div><div><br></div><div>Demolition</div><div>
vi_</div><div>ammyt</div><div>ivgalvez</div><div><br></div><div>Please any one else interested in become a new Superster send an email to this mailing list.</div></div></div></div></blockquote></div><div><br><br>Look above :)<br>
</div></div></blockquote><div><br></div><div>Please subscribe to the testing-squad mailing list and nominate yourself, I'm pretty sure Rob could include you soon.</div><div><br></div><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">
<div class="gmail_quote"><div>
</div><div class="im"><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0pt 0pt 0pt 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"><div><div><div style="color:rgb(80,0,80)"><div><div><br></div><div><b>Proposed changes for the promotion process:</b></div>
</div><div>This should be the easiest part of the changes that we are proposing.</div><div><div>- Promotion of applications from Testing to Extras should be automatic once the requirements are fulfilled. No need of maintainer to actively promoting the application.</div>
<div>This will allow orphaned applications to be promoted.</div></div></div></div></div></blockquote></div><div><br><br>So the automatic thing is not implemented yet? Who's responsible for that? Can anyone with the needed expertise contribute? Who to poke?<br>
</div></div></blockquote><div><br></div><div>That's the big problem, we have been trying for a month now with the administrators without success. I hope that now that Quim is the new community manager he could help us with that. </div>
<blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"><div class="gmail_quote"><div>
</div><div class="im"><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0pt 0pt 0pt 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"><div><div><div style="color:rgb(80,0,80)"><div><div><br></div></div><div>- Only one Supertester vote, enough to promote an application.</div>
</div></div></div></blockquote></div><div><br>I'm saying no to this. One isn't enough. Needs at least two, I'd prefer three.<br></div></div></blockquote><div><br></div><div>OK, let's see if can at least unblock the whole thing.</div>
<blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"><div class="gmail_quote"><div> </div><div class="im"><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0pt 0pt 0pt 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex">
<div><div><div style="color:rgb(80,0,80)"><div><div>- Five User votes, enough to promote an application.</div></div></div></div></div></blockquote></div><div><br>I'd keep this in 10. My reasoning: popular/hot packages - People don't actually test, they just want to see their facourite stuff promoted.<br>
</div></div></blockquote><div><br></div><div>This is now implemented with 6 votes if I'm not wrong. You are right about votes for popular packages but a Supertester should be able to block or downgrade any crappy patches if needed.</div>
<blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"><div class="gmail_quote"><div>
</div><div class="im"><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0pt 0pt 0pt 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"><div><div><div style="color:rgb(80,0,80)"><div>
</div><div><div>We are running out of man power.</div></div></div></div></div></blockquote></div><div><br>True. But that is no excuse to let quality matter any less.<br><br></div><div class="im"><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0pt 0pt 0pt 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex">
<div><div><div style="color:rgb(80,0,80)"><div><div><br></div><div>All other criteria could be maintained as they are now.</div><div><br></div></div><div>Proposed new permissions/abilities for Supertesters:</div><div>
<div>- Add a new developer to maintainer list of any package.</div></div></div></div></div></blockquote></div><div><br>Just as a comment: This shouldn't be done lightly, the current maintainer should be contacted first with reasonable time to response. Also changes as this should be discussed publicly mailing list preferred before taking any action. Mailing list because the forum is very difficult to follow and asking there a question from a specific user isn't that effective..<br>
</div></div></blockquote><div><br></div><div>Of course this process has to be polite to not offend anyone and I would even recommend to do that twice, also on TMO (original announce thread of the app or a new one if needed) and even PM if possible, but right now that process seems to be very slow.</div>
<div><br></div><div>Regarding the changes in maintainer list, is that something doable by the Council members? If so, then we could solve that having more active Council members, without the need to grant permission also to Supertesters.</div>
<div><br></div><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"><div class="gmail_quote"><div>
</div><div class="im"><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0pt 0pt 0pt 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"><div><div><div style="color:rgb(80,0,80)"><div><div>- Delete a package from the repository.</div>
<div>- Edit bugtracker link.</div><div>- Ability to promote a package not only from Testing to Extras but also from Devel to Testing.</div></div></div></div></div></blockquote></div><div><br>I disagree with this. This is clearly responsibility of the maintainer/developer.<br>
</div></div></blockquote><div><br></div><div>But the problem here is that there are a lot of orphaned packages. If no one volunteers to become a new maintainer, such simple actions could be done by a Supertester.</div><div>
<br></div><div>- Deletion and downgrading of orphaned broken packages is needed right now. If becoming maintainer to do that is required, and only the Council can grant maintenance permissions, the whole process is extremely complicated.</div>
<div><br></div><div>- Edit the bugtracker link just to point people to a TMO thread in some cases is pretty simple and would allow a lot of packages to be promoted.</div><div><br></div><div>- Promotion from Devel to Testing shouldn't be a normal situation. Only a few applications are now unmaintained but stable enough for that. Again, the question here is that the community members don't have administrative permissions to fix almost anything.</div>
<div><br></div><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"><div class="gmail_quote"><div> </div><div class="im"><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0pt 0pt 0pt 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex">
<div><div><div style="color:rgb(80,0,80)"><div>
<div>- Ability to downgrade a package from Extras to Testing, and even to Devel. </div></div></div></div></div></blockquote></div><div><br>I'd think there's no need to demote to testing. If package needs to be removed from extras it clearly has no place in testing and devel should already have the some or newer version of it. So ability to remove stuff from extras is the only thing needed.<br>
</div></div></blockquote><div><br></div><div>Right for demoting to Testing, but there could be broken applications that at least should be available in Devel for those who want to experiment and maybe there is no newer version for that.</div>
<blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"><div class="gmail_quote"><div>
</div><div class="im"><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0pt 0pt 0pt 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"><div><div><div style="color:rgb(80,0,80)"><div><div>- Ability to prevent automatic promotion of a package from Testing to Extras (to avoid popular but potentially dangerous app to be promoted automatically if reached the number of user votes needed).</div>
</div></div></div></div></blockquote></div><div><br>Agreed. Already commented on the issue earlier.<br> </div><div class="im"><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0pt 0pt 0pt 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex">
<div><div><div style="color:rgb(80,0,80)"><div>
<div><br></div><div>So we should try to keep IRC conversation on how to achieve those points (already discussed at TMO).</div></div></div></div></div></blockquote></div><div><br>What channel (and network) you're using?<br>
</div></div></blockquote><div><br></div><div>None, as we haven't received any response. </div><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"><div class="gmail_quote">
<div>
<br>Thanks,<br><br>-Timo<br> </div><div><div class="h5"><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0pt 0pt 0pt 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"><div><br></div><div>Regards</div><div><div>
</div><div>
<div><br><br><div class="gmail_quote">
2012/4/3 Timo Härkönen <span dir="ltr"><<a href="mailto:timop.harkonen@gmail.com" target="_blank">timop.harkonen@gmail.com</a>></span><br>
<blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">Hi<br><br><div class="gmail_quote">3. huhtikuuta 2012 11.13 Iván Gálvez Junquera <span dir="ltr"><<a href="mailto:ivgalvez@gmail.com" target="_blank">ivgalvez@gmail.com</a>></span> kirjoitti:<div>
<br><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">
Hi Andre,<div><br></div><div>I have resend you the complete summary and the mailing list messages regarding the Supertesters proposal. That proposal was first discussed at TMO and once it was clear was moved to the appropriate mailing list. We have been trying to contact Niels and Henry for a month now and haven't received any response yet.</div>
</blockquote></div><div><br>Why not keep the discussion on this list instead of private replies. There just might be people on this list who are also interested in it and could contribute..<span><font color="#888888"><br>
<br><br>-Timo<br> </font></span></div><div><div><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0pt 0pt 0pt 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex">
<div><br></div><div>Regards<div><div></div><div><br><br><div class="gmail_quote">2012/4/3 Andre Klapper <span dir="ltr"><<a href="mailto:andre_klapper@gmx.net" target="_blank">andre_klapper@gmx.net</a>></span><br>
<blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">
Hi Rob,<br>
<br>
On Mon, 2012-04-02 at 13:55 -0400, robert bauer wrote:<br>
> There is a thread on the testing squad ML<br>
<br>
<a href="https://garage.maemo.org/pipermail/testingsquad-list/2012-March/thread.html" target="_blank">https://garage.maemo.org/pipermail/testingsquad-list/2012-March/thread.html</a><br>
<br>
> and also a "supertesters" thread on the forum.<br>
<br>
<a href="http://talk.maemo.org/showthread.php?t=82374" target="_blank">http://talk.maemo.org/showthread.php?t=82374</a><br>
<br>
> Please also contact ivgalvez if you can offer help or advice.<br>
<br>
You foreshadowed some issues in the quote below, I asked you to<br>
elaborate on them. I won't read through the threads that I just had to<br>
find myself, sorry - instead I expected you to summarize the issues, as<br>
you initially came up with that topic here.<br>
<br>
In general it seems like there is a communication issue. It's depressing<br>
to see such problems only made half-public by the council now, just<br>
before an election.<br>
<br>
My two cents,<br>
andre<br>
<br>
<br>
> On Mon, Apr 2, 2012 at 12:56 PM, Andre Klapper <<a href="mailto:andre_klapper@gmx.net" target="_blank">andre_klapper@gmx.net</a>><br>
> wrote:<br>
> On Mon, 2012-04-02 at 12:52 -0400, robert bauer wrote:<br>
> > There are several reasons - the last reason for many of the<br>
> developers<br>
> > is that there are projects and software being developed<br>
> which are<br>
> > being hindered by the lack of cooperation we are getting<br>
> from<br>
> > Nokia/Nemein. For example, we have a long list of fremantle<br>
> packages<br>
> > to be promoted and the blocker is Nokia/Nemein. Extras<br>
> downloads does<br>
> > us little good if packages can't get into extras. The<br>
> problem is<br>
> > serious - we can't even get replies to our emails.<br>
><br>
> Could you elaborate on this, if possible?<br>
><br>
> andre<br>
><br>
> --<br>
> Andre Klapper (<a href="http://maemo.org" target="_blank">maemo.org</a> bugmaster)<br>
> <a href="http://blogs.gnome.org/aklapper/" target="_blank">http://blogs.gnome.org/aklapper/</a><br>
><br>
> _______________________________________________<br>
> maemo-community mailing list<br>
> <a href="mailto:maemo-community@maemo.org" target="_blank">maemo-community@maemo.org</a><br>
> <a href="https://lists.maemo.org/mailman/listinfo/maemo-community" target="_blank">https://lists.maemo.org/mailman/listinfo/maemo-community</a><br>
><br>
> _______________________________________________<br>
> maemo-community mailing list<br>
> <a href="mailto:maemo-community@maemo.org" target="_blank">maemo-community@maemo.org</a><br>
> <a href="https://lists.maemo.org/mailman/listinfo/maemo-community" target="_blank">https://lists.maemo.org/mailman/listinfo/maemo-community</a><br>
<span><font color="#888888"><br>
--<br>
Andre Klapper (<a href="http://maemo.org" target="_blank">maemo.org</a> bugmaster)<br>
<a href="http://blogs.gnome.org/aklapper/" target="_blank">http://blogs.gnome.org/aklapper/</a><br>
<br>
_______________________________________________<br>
maemo-community mailing list<br>
<a href="mailto:maemo-community@maemo.org" target="_blank">maemo-community@maemo.org</a><br>
<a href="https://lists.maemo.org/mailman/listinfo/maemo-community" target="_blank">https://lists.maemo.org/mailman/listinfo/maemo-community</a><br>
</font></span></blockquote></div><br><br clear="all"><div><br></div></div></div><font color="#888888">-- <br>Iván Gálvez Junquera<br>
</font></div>
<br>_______________________________________________<br>
maemo-community mailing list<br>
<a href="mailto:maemo-community@maemo.org" target="_blank">maemo-community@maemo.org</a><br>
<a href="https://lists.maemo.org/mailman/listinfo/maemo-community" target="_blank">https://lists.maemo.org/mailman/listinfo/maemo-community</a><br>
<br></blockquote></div></div></div><br>
<br>_______________________________________________<br>
maemo-community mailing list<br>
<a href="mailto:maemo-community@maemo.org" target="_blank">maemo-community@maemo.org</a><br>
<a href="https://lists.maemo.org/mailman/listinfo/maemo-community" target="_blank">https://lists.maemo.org/mailman/listinfo/maemo-community</a><br>
<br></blockquote></div><br><br clear="all"><div><br></div>-- <br>Iván Gálvez Junquera<br>
</div>
</div></div><br>_______________________________________________<br>
maemo-community mailing list<br>
<a href="mailto:maemo-community@maemo.org" target="_blank">maemo-community@maemo.org</a><br>
<a href="https://lists.maemo.org/mailman/listinfo/maemo-community" target="_blank">https://lists.maemo.org/mailman/listinfo/maemo-community</a><br>
<br></blockquote></div></div></div><br>
<br>_______________________________________________<br>
maemo-community mailing list<br>
<a href="mailto:maemo-community@maemo.org">maemo-community@maemo.org</a><br>
<a href="https://lists.maemo.org/mailman/listinfo/maemo-community" target="_blank">https://lists.maemo.org/mailman/listinfo/maemo-community</a><br>
<br></blockquote></div><br><br clear="all"><div><br></div>-- <br>Iván Gálvez Junquera<br>
</div>