On Thu, Apr 24, 2008 at 2:18 PM, Eero Tamminen <<a href="mailto:eero.tamminen@nokia.com">eero.tamminen@nokia.com</a>> wrote:<br><div class="gmail_quote"><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="border-left: 1px solid rgb(204, 204, 204); margin: 0pt 0pt 0pt 0.8ex; padding-left: 1ex;">
My comments were more about hobby Open Source projects in general.<br>
I think most of the maemo 3rd party applications are such.<br>
</blockquote><div><br>Why should it be so different? Isn't it nice to be a hobby developer and be listed up there with the big boys? <br></div><div> <br>
</div><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="border-left: 1px solid rgb(204, 204, 204); margin: 0pt 0pt 0pt 0.8ex; padding-left: 1ex;"><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="border-left: 1px solid rgb(204, 204, 204); margin: 0pt 0pt 0pt 0.8ex; padding-left: 1ex;">
Who has 2 hours to waste on something as fun as bugzilla? Even this email<br>
exchange is way more rewarding. I've put in a handful for certain projects,<br>
then watch them sit around doing nothing, only to get an email that says<br>
"WONTFIX". That's user hostile.<br>
</blockquote>
<br>
Yes, I know that it can be frustrating (I've had my share of that too).<br>
<br>
But it's not user hostile, just pragmatic. Developers are limited and<br></blockquote><div><br>Yes it's hostile. It's all caps, and tells the user they're an idiot all in seven simple letters. Granted it is very efficient of the developer's time... <br>
<br>
</div><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="border-left: 1px solid rgb(204, 204, 204); margin: 0pt 0pt 0pt 0.8ex; padding-left: 1ex;"><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="border-left: 1px solid rgb(204, 204, 204); margin: 0pt 0pt 0pt 0.8ex; padding-left: 1ex;">
<blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="border-left: 1px solid rgb(204, 204, 204); margin: 0pt 0pt 0pt 0.8ex; padding-left: 1ex;"><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="border-left: 1px solid rgb(204, 204, 204); margin: 0pt 0pt 0pt 0.8ex; padding-left: 1ex;">
That makes the triage for the user easy; 3) dump the program.<br>
<br>
</blockquote>
Regardless of how important you may feel yourself :-), most Open Source<br>
</blockquote>
<br>
This is not about my own perceived importance, but the developer's.<br>
Is he really more valuable than thousands or hundreds of users?<br>
</blockquote>
<br>
It's not about developer importance, but what he has time to do.<br>
1000*users surely can get more done than a single developer in<br>
regards to bug handling.<br></blockquote><div><br>All a user is trying to do is keep the water out of the boat, not figure out the oceanography that caused the rock to puncture it. <br><br></div><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="border-left: 1px solid rgb(204, 204, 204); margin: 0pt 0pt 0pt 0.8ex; padding-left: 1ex;">
If the issue is not important enough to user so that he reports<br>
a bug, that gives a pretty clear message to the developer about<br>
the importance of the issue.<br>
</blockquote><div><br>And chewing out at a user like that gives a pretty clear message of the importance of the user(s). <br><br></div><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="border-left: 1px solid rgb(204, 204, 204); margin: 0pt 0pt 0pt 0.8ex; padding-left: 1ex;">
<blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="border-left: 1px solid rgb(204, 204, 204); margin: 0pt 0pt 0pt 0.8ex; padding-left: 1ex;">
Again, this is a very unprofessional way to develop.<br>
</blockquote>developers really aren't doing what they do to please you or get more<br>
<br>
Well, I was talking about hobby Open Source projects.<br>
</blockquote><div><br>By professional I don't mean "making money" I mean respectful attitude. As if you expected to make money. <br><br>
</div><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="border-left: 1px solid rgb(204, 204, 204); margin: 0pt 0pt 0pt 0.8ex; padding-left: 1ex;"><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="border-left: 1px solid rgb(204, 204, 204); margin: 0pt 0pt 0pt 0.8ex; padding-left: 1ex;">
And makes the platform unattractive to users and investors<br>
(I also mean investors of mindshare and<br>
time as well as money)<br>
</blockquote>
<br>
Yes, distro/platform proving some easy way to provide error information<br>
to developers (without swamping them) would indeed be a good thing...<br>
(in addition to providing common bug tracking system so that users<br>
need to register there only once)<br>
</blockquote><div><br>Bugzilla appears to be useful. Any bug tracking system is essential. It's just not a user tool, it's a developer tool. It's complex and frightening, and indeed, rather user hostile.<br>
<br></div><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="border-left: 1px solid rgb(204, 204, 204); margin: 0pt 0pt 0pt 0.8ex; padding-left: 1ex;"><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="border-left: 1px solid rgb(204, 204, 204); margin: 0pt 0pt 0pt 0.8ex; padding-left: 1ex;">
<blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="border-left: 1px solid rgb(204, 204, 204); margin: 0pt 0pt 0pt 0.8ex; padding-left: 1ex;">things *together*. If you just want to profit from their work without<br>
contributing yourself in someway (even to some other project), well,<br>
they're not going to miss you.<br>
<br>
</blockquote>
Do you say the same thing to developers? "If you don't want to respond to<br>
users' input, take a hike, we're not going to miss you".<br>
</blockquote>
<br>
Sorry I lost you?<br>
</blockquote><div><br>Respect goes two ways. Blowing off users is a bad move. Using the program IS contributing to it. It tends to create a network of users, spreading the word is important and attracts potential developers.<br>
<br></div><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="border-left: 1px solid rgb(204, 204, 204); margin: 0pt 0pt 0pt 0.8ex; padding-left: 1ex;"><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="border-left: 1px solid rgb(204, 204, 204); margin: 0pt 0pt 0pt 0.8ex; padding-left: 1ex;">
The best experiences I've had with developers on maemo so far is on the ITT<br>
forums. It's simple to report, you can see results, and takes only<br>
seconds. One registration for many many applications, and it's something<br>
you might want to do in the long run anyway.<br>
</blockquote>
<br>
That sounds an excellent way for the users to organize&collect the<br>
information required for a good (reproducible) bug report. It's<br>
then enough that one of them reports the bug.<font color="#888888"></font></blockquote><div><br>No no, the developer can't be in an ivory tower. If he uses a bug tracker in the background or not, I don't need to know or care. The developer needs to be *there*. The forum posts are sometimes as good as fully fledged bug reports. They may still solicit bug submissions, but likely the user might have already have done what he could.<br>
</div></div>