[maemo-community] A 'red thread' through talks at maemo summit

[From: Qole]

On Thu, Sep 24, 2009 at 2:04 AM, Aniello Del Sorbo <anidel at gmail.com> wrote:

> It would have been even better if that was made in the public.
>
> Aniello
>

Aniello,

It was made in the public. And there's still time for you to contribute!

Please see this talk.maemo.org thread:

Summit 09: Call for Input for Ari Jaaksi dialog
http://talk.maemo.org/showthread.php?t=30120

The e-mail that was accidentally "leaked" was just asking for some final
input from other Summit contributors who will be also discussing similar
things in their talks.

Also, I want my final talk to be a little bit of a surprise, even though you
get a very good overall idea from that thread.

It would be somewhat ironic if I was secretly doing something about open
source.

Alan "qole" Bruce



> 2009/9/24 Sebastian 'CrashandDie' Lauwers <crashanddie at gmail.com>:
> > Good to see some posts are harvested to fuel whatever. (Summit
> > questions? Blog post?)
> >
> > Also, Randall, your email requesting deletion is sadly not going to
> > happen -- the mailing lists are archived publicly.
> >
> > -S.
> >
> >
> > On 23/09/2009, Qole <qole.tablet at gmail.com> wrote:
> >> If that seems like someone accidentally sent a private e-mail to a
> public
> >> mailing-list right in the middle of a long discussion, with no context
> and
> >> no indicators as to what all of that was about...
> >>
> >> You'd be right.
> >>
> >>
> >> On Wed, Sep 23, 2009 at 2:19 PM, Randall Arnold <texrat at ovi.com> wrote:
> >>
> >>> ...and you now poke the biggest, ugliest stick of all into the hornets'
> >>> nest: *roadmaps*.
> >>>
> >>> There's no way to make this issue black and white so we have been
> arguing
> >>> on what shade of grey it should be.  This is one of those confounding
> >>> dilemmas where extreme views on either side have equal merit.
> >>>
> >>> The problem for Nokia is, somehow this stumbling bloick MUST be
> eliminated
> >>> or development will persist in some quasi state satisfactory to neither
> >>> the
> >>> company nor the community.
> >>>
> >>> But ultimately all we as a community can do is
> >>> beg/whine/argue/recommend/protest.  SOMEone in Nokia must decide what
> >>> roadmaps should look like and when/how they are released.  That also
> >>> brings
> >>> in the lawyers.
> >>>
> >>> Ay yi yi...
> >>>
> >>> -Randy
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> ----- Original message -----
> >>> From: "Alan Bruce" <alan at thebruces.ca>
> >>> To: "Randall Arnold" <texrat at ovi.com>
> >>> Subject: Re: A 'red thread' through talks at maemo summit
> >>> Date: Wed, 23 Sep 2009 12:05:40 -0700
> >>>
> >>> Whoah, I've just doubled the size of my text by adding all the good
> >>> questions and comments from the t.m.o thread.
> >>>
> >>> Here's the part of my text that has changed:
> >>>
> >>> Harmattan / The future
> >>>
> >>>    - What kind of changes do you plan to make in the future to better
> work
> >>>    with the community?
> >>>    - Would Nokia consider giving end-of-life versions of Maemo to the
> >>>    community to maintain? Or does Nokia expect the community to
> >>> exclusively use
> >>>    parallel versions of Maemo, like Mer, if the community wishes to
> take
> >>>    control after Nokia ends support?
> >>>    - Now that Maemo Devices controls the software and the hardware,
> will
> >>>    the hardware become more open-source? Will there be processes for
> the
> >>>    community to contribute to hardware design?
> >>>
> >>> *High Level Open Source vs. Closed Source Discussion*
> >>> *(the same)
> >>> **
> >>> Questions from the community:*
> >>>
> >>> *Jaffa:*
> >>> Accepting that some things need to be kept behind closed doors for
> >>> commercial reasons, when are Nokia engineers going to be operating in
> the
> >>> community for everything *else*? We'd like to see API design
> discussions
> >>> in advance, on maemo-developers, as well as an open, common bugzilla
> and
> >>> code repository. For example, we discovered the Fremantle "third party
> >>> package policy" when people started having problems. And that's in an
> >>> open,
> >>> community-involved package like Application Manager.
> >>>
> >>> *Discussion between Jaffa/ragnar*:
> >>>
> >>>    - *Jaffa:* [W]e've already seen what happens with Hildon when well
> >>>    intentioned developers go away for 18 months and then come back with
> a
> >>> beta
> >>>    which has a practically fixed API, which lots of developers
> immediately
> >>>    start finding inconsistencies, edge cases, over-zealous specialisms
> vs.
> >>> over
> >>>    generalisations.
> >>>    The only valid answer I can see is the one we've heard before:
> >>>    "exposing this information for external comment from the community
> will
> >>>    reveal too much of our future plans".
> >>>    This is a fine answer. But, of course, there's then no hint of
> >>>    roadmaps, design principles (not in the UX sense) or architecture
> plans
> >>> on
> >>>    which the community can contribute. So, no contributions means the
> >>> cycle
> >>>    continues and products which could've had free consultancy services
> >>> from an
> >>>    empassioned expert community are shipped in a sub-optimal state.
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>    - *ragnar:* Generally UI's are not revealed in advance because of
> >>>    competitive reasons. If we would have shown the Maemo 5 UI plans at
> the
> >>> time
> >>>    they were ready for the first time, any smart competitor would have
> not
> >>>    commented anything on them, picked up on the good ideas, disregarded
> >>> others
> >>>    and probably even come out with their own device before Nokia. Then
> end
> >>>    consumers - who don't know and care about the process of how things
> get
> >>> done
> >>>    - would be just left confused. Showing our own cards is a very basic
> >>>    problem, and I hope everybody realizes that. We will be the first
> >>> company
> >>>    out with the device with the Maemo 5 UI. If you wouldn't believe
> your
> >>> UI is
> >>>    an competitive advantage and therefore don't care about that fact,
> then
> >>> we
> >>>    can all go home already.
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> So, either you hold your cards really close to your chest, or you then
> do
> >>> the complete opposite, and do like Mozilla, and open up everything all
> the
> >>> time, right from the start. If Nokia = Maemo and nothing more, and if
> >>> Nokia
> >>> could crank devices out faster than any competitor, then perhaps there
> >>> would
> >>> be more options. But since Nokia > just Maemo, even Maemo does not work
> in
> >>> a
> >>> bubble. Revealing some parts of Maemo UI would reveal ... elements of
> >>> "Nokia
> >>> UI" - see that however you want.
> >>>
> >>> Well, yes, external consultancy costs money. But it can also offer
> >>> consistency, with testing methodology, target user gathering,
> non-biased
> >>> testers, consistent reporting metrics etc. etc. So they're not really
> >>> comparative. You wouldn't replace one with the other.
> >>>
> >>> Could you - or anybody - can come up with a good (as in realistic and
> >>> pragmatic instead of idealistic) proposal on how to 'do' community
> input
> >>> regarding the new UI?
> >>>
> >>> ...[I]f we would show the whole plans, and then get n comments on it,
> ...
> >>> Would following the democratic majority of the developer community lead
> to
> >>> an optimal solution in terms of an UI solution? Wouldn't that be the
> worst
> >>> kind of "design by committee" that one could imagine? Do a poll for
> >>> "Feature
> >>> X, do solution A or solution B" and vote which solution gets more
> votes?
> >>> No?
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> *Milhouse:*
> >>> In three years, I've seen little real progress, just lots of promises
> to
> >>> improve which never really materialise. I can count the number of
> >>> Nokia/Maemo developers actively involved in Bugzilla on one hand. Intel
> >>> puts
> >>> Nokia to shame with the amount of involvement from Intel engineers in
> the
> >>> Moblin bugzilla. Why is Intel able to achieve a much greater level of
> >>> transparency than Nokia when discussing defects and enhancements? Intel
> >>> appear willing to publicly file, and more importantly discuss, the bugs
> in
> >>> their product whereas Nokia prefer to keep their dirty laundry a secret
> >>> and
> >>> are doing a very good job of ignoring those bugs raised by the
> community.
> >>> There is little if any direct input from Nokia developers against
> publicly
> >>> filed bugs, many of which are closed as WONTFIX when the respective OS
> >>> version is end-of-lined.
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> *jaem:*
> >>> One of the strengths of Maemo is its community, largely drawn by the
> >>> relative openness and hackability of the Maemo devices. In light of
> >>> announced plans for a more mass-market approach, and potentially future
> >>> Linux-based smartphone devices (e.g. oFono), how does Nokia plan to
> >>> balance
> >>> maintaining openness with the opposing pressures typically inherent in
> >>> such
> >>> plans?
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> *lma:*
> >>> What happened since "It is not a cell phone -- and it is
> >>> good<
> http://jaaksi.blogspot.com/2005/11/it-is-not-cell-phone-and-it-is-good.html
> >"
> >>> to change your mind? Are those reasons not valid any more, or are there
> >>> more
> >>> compelling reasons (and if so, what) pushing in the opposite direction?
> >>> The
> >>> compromises/sacrifices necessary to turn a tablet into a phone (finger
> UI,
> >>> screen size and so on) have been very controversial here [on the
> forums];
> >>> does Nokia plan to still address the market segment that prefers a
> tablet
> >>> to
> >>> a phone?
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> *benny1967*:
> >>>
> >>>    - how much community input could nokia handle concerning *hardware*?
> >>>    could they envision that some day a future product is designed via a
> >>>    bugzilla-system, with people voting for enhancement requests about
> >>> hardware?
> >>>    could there be something like a community edition of existing mass
> >>> market
> >>>    products that differs in things like screen size or keyboard layout
> etc
> >>>    according to the wishes of a reasonably large part of the community?
> >>>    - How does the maemo community live up to Nokia's expectations? Are
> >>>    there still things that must be done internally (or don't happen at
> >>> all)
> >>>    because the community fails to deliver?
> >>>    - On the business side, is dealing with the community in general
> more
> >>>    expensive/difficult than handling uncoordinated customer feedback?
> >>>
> >>> *ARJWright:*
> >>> Nokia seems to be going in two directions: the transition from a device
> to
> >>> a services company with Ovi; and the transition to the new open source
> >>> Symbian and Maemo. Is "mobile" really the best arena for a company
> which
> >>> is
> >>> basing its value on services and the relationships that it has
> maintained?
> >>> Or, from Nokia's perspective, do these transitions to open source and
> >>> services-orientation point to a key element of technology-as-culture
> that
> >>> we
> >>> miss because we don't have the same view that a company such as Nokia
> has?
> >>> If the latter, can you elaborate on what Nokia sees, and why this
> >>> viewpoint
> >>> is significant for a community like Maemo to understand.
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> *Texrat:*
> >>>
> >>> The community really desires *some* sort of development/release roadmap
> >>> for Maemo hardware and software. We understand that Nokia cannot be *
> >>> completely* forthcoming due to competitive needs, but can't at least
> *some
> >>> * degree of rough guidance be provided?
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> On Wed, Sep 23, 2009 at 11:10 AM, Randall Arnold <texrat at ovi.com>
> wrote:
> >>>
> >>>> Excellent point, and one I actually raised 3 years ago and have harped
> on
> >>>> so much since that it did not occur to me to raise it again.  : D
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>  ----- Original message -----
> >>>> From: "Alan Bruce" <alan at thebruces.ca>
> >>>> To: "Carsten Munk" <carsten.munk at gmail.com>
> >>>> Subject: Re: A 'red thread' through talks at maemo summit
> >>>>
> >>>>  Date: Wed, 23 Sep 2009 10:34:21 -0700
> >>>>
> >>>> Carsten, you're right. I just re-read my thread at t.m.o. and jaffa
> asks
> >>>> the same question:
> >>>>
> >>>> Jaffa: Accepting that some things need to be kept behind closed doors
> for
> >>>> commercial reasons, when are Nokia engineers going to be operating in
> the
> >>>> community for everything *else*? (For example, we discovered the
> >>>> Fremantle "third party package policy" when people started having
> >>>> problems.
> >>>> And that's in an open, community-involved package like Application
> >>>> Manager.)
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>> On Wed, Sep 23, 2009 at 12:22 AM, Carsten Munk
> >>>> <carsten.munk at gmail.com>wrote:
> >>>>
> >>>>> Loving the questions. Maybe a question on getting internal developers
> >>>>> out
> >>>>> in the open - open source happens by doing things in the open as
> well.
> >>>>>
> >>>>> Regards,
> >>>>> Carsten
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> --------------------------------------------------------------
> >>> Ovi Store: New apps daily
> >>> http://store.ovi.com/?cid=ovistore-fw-bac-na-acq-na-ovimail-g0-na-3
> >>>
> >>> _______________________________________________
> >>> maemo-community mailing list
> >>> maemo-community at maemo.org
> >>> https://lists.maemo.org/mailman/listinfo/maemo-community
> >>>
> >>>
> >>
> >>
> >> --
> >> enthusiast, n. "One whose mind is wholly possessed and heated by what
> >> engages it; one who is influenced by a peculiar fervor of mind; an
> ardent
> >> and imaginative person."
> >>
> >
> > --
> > Sent from my mobile device
> >
> > question = ( to ) ? be : ! be;
> >      -- Wm. Shakespeare
> > _______________________________________________
> > maemo-community mailing list
> > maemo-community at maemo.org
> > https://lists.maemo.org/mailman/listinfo/maemo-community
> >
>
>
>
> --
>
> --
> anidel
> _______________________________________________
> maemo-community mailing list
> maemo-community at maemo.org
> https://lists.maemo.org/mailman/listinfo/maemo-community
>



-- 
enthusiast, n. "One whose mind is wholly possessed and heated by what
engages it; one who is influenced by a peculiar fervor of mind; an ardent
and imaginative person."
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