[maemo-developers] 3.2007.10-7 - Detailed change log?

[From: Andy Mulhearn]

On 3 Aug 2007, at 16:32, Eero Tamminen wrote:

> Hi,
>
> ext Andy Mulhearn wrote:
>> On Thursday, August 02, 2007, at 12:11PM, "Daniel Stone"  
>> <daniel.stone at nokia.com> wrote:
>>> On Thu, Aug 02, 2007 at 02:05:31AM -0700, ext Andy Mulhearn wrote:
>>>> On Thursday, August 02, 2007, at 09:56AM, "Eero Tamminen"  
>>>> <eero.tamminen at nokia.com> wrote:
>>>>> We certainly know what we've fixed, but the issue is that there's
>>>>> no reasonable way to know what part of that is relevant to you.
>>>> Well publish the whole list then. Surely it can't be that hard?
>>> The whole list includes not only internal codenames etc which  
>>> can't be
>>> published, but details of proprietary components.  So it's not  
>>> just a
>>> matter of dumping the BTS, it still requires someone to go  
>>> through and
>>> make the changelog (which we should have anyway).
>>
>> And which people have been requesting for a significant period of  
>> time.
>>>>> For example I don't think you would be interested about a list  
>>>>> of a few
>>>>> hundred localization issues (missing localization, typos etc)  
>>>>> found
>>>>> by  the localization testing while a new release is being  
>>>>> developed,
>>>>> especially as none of these issues is in any release you can  
>>>>> install
>>>>> to your device.  They are not in the latest public release  
>>>>> where they
>>>>> are fixed nor in the previous one which didn't have them.
>>>> When the fixes were checked into your source repository, did you  
>>>> detail
>>>> every single change made or the headline?
>>> 'your source repository'.  Do you mean the Application Framework SVN
>>> repository, the Complementary Applications SVN repository, my X  
>>> server
>>> git repository, the kernel git repository, ... ?
>>
>> How about all of them?
>
> Please check what's available; kernel and X git repositories you  
> should
> find with Google, Application framework stuff you will find from Maemo
> (until it's moved to Gnome), new Browser is in Garage.  For all the  
> open
> source(d) packages you find the debian source package from the maemo
> repos and those contain change logs.  Maybe you could view them and  
> tell
> what specifically you're lacking?

Hmmm, I think someone's missing the point here. You "Nokia" tell me  
as an end user nothing about what's in each release. From start to  
finish, there's no information in a release that tells me what it  
includes. At the very minimum I want the delta between the current  
and previous releases. If that's fixed defect this in package that  
and upgraded Opera to version y then that's fine. But you seem  
incapable of doing even that.

And the new browser is not part of the released image so I'm not  
interested. But will be when it is.

To be honest, your response is more along the same line of the  
previous responses, i.e. "it's more complex than you understand"  
which again just tells me Nokia either can't or won't provide this  
information.

>
>
>> Sorry to be blunt but I'm beginning to believe there are two  
>> reasons this
>> hasn't been done before.
>>
>> 1) Your development processes are so chaotic/broken that you  
>> simply can't
>> do it., e.g. you don't use a decent bug-tracking tool and no one  
>> manages
>> what goes into a release.
>>
>> 2) You just don't want to and no one can be bothered to make the  
>> statement.
>>
>> When the team I work with produce a new cut of software, we  
>> include all
>> of the specific requirements added to the release and any defects  
>> fixed
>> in the release. And what's fixed in any third party products we use.
>> This can run to hundreds of specific changes in a major release  
>> but we
>> manage to do it and we dont' have a huge team to managed it  
>> because we
>> have good processes and controls and use the right tools to manage
>> releases and defect tracking..
>>
>> So I fail to see why you can't present this information other than  
>> one
>> of the two reasons above.
>
> I think you're confusing things.  We have all that for internal  
> releases
> and internal customers.

No, I can't help thinking that it's you that's trying to obfuscate  
things.

>
> External distro/core developers can already follow changes "live"
> through maemo-developers, sardine,  ubuntu-mobile/embdded, gtk etc
> mailing lists and svn to an extent (although there's still a lot to
> improve).
>
> I understood the problem being discussed here is how to map that to
> public releases and for end-users?  As Quim stated, this is being
> (slowly) improved.

If slow improvement means not seeing any change over a period of six  
months then yes, there is slow improvement.

[snipped a response to a different author's questions]

Andy