[maemo-developers] [maemo-developers] Re: maemo-developers Digest, Vol 22, Issue 83

Fri Feb 16 00:15:39 EET 2007

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From: maemo-developers-request at maemo.org

Date: Thu, 15 Feb 2007 22:15:28 
To:maemo-developers at maemo.org
Subject: maemo-developers Digest, Vol 22, Issue 83

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Today's Topics:

   1. Wii-Remote (Andreas Hubel)
   2. Re: Re: [maemo-users] 'Locking down' software	installation
      (Andy Mulhearn)
   3. Re: Re: [maemo-users] 'Locking down' software	installation
      (Andy Mulhearn)
   4. Re: [maemo-users] 'Locking down' software	installation (Levi Bard)
   5. Re: Re: [maemo-users] 'Locking down' software	installation
      (Levi Bard)
   6. Re: [maemo-users] 'Locking down' software	installation
      (Marius Vollmer)
   7. Re: [maemo-users] 'Locking down' software	installation (Levi Bard)
   8. Re: NX Client for Nokia 770/800 (Uwe Koch)

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Message: 1
Date: Thu, 15 Feb 2007 18:50:49 +0100 (CET)
From: "Andreas Hubel" <ah at hubel-elektroanlagen.de>
Subject: [maemo-developers] Wii-Remote
To: maemo-developers at maemo.org
Message-ID:
	<2099.89.49.154.29.1171561849.squirrel at webmail.cat-proof.de>
Content-Type: text/plain;charset=iso-8859-1

Hi,

has somebody already tried to connect a Wii-Remote with an Nokia 770 or
N800 via Bluetooth?

see
http://www.wiili.org/index.php/Wiimote
for more infos

------------------------------

Message: 2
Date: Thu, 15 Feb 2007 18:39:58 +0000
From: Andy Mulhearn <unxmully at mac.com>
Subject: Re: [maemo-developers] Re: [maemo-users] 'Locking down'
	software	installation
To: Paul Klapperich <maemo.org at bobpaul.org>
Cc: maemo-users at maemo.org, maemo-developers at maemo.org
Message-ID: <21659B5A-8002-475F-B62F-A43AEAE87C26 at mac.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

On 15 Feb 2007, at 16:47, Paul Klapperich wrote:

> On 2/15/07, Marius Vollmer <marius.vollmer at nokia.com> wrote:
> > My only concern would be getting into a Windows XP-like situation
> > where you reinstall with XP SP1 becaude that's what came with your
> > system and then have to install SP2 and 100+ hotfixes to get back to
> > where you were.
>
> I have zero experience with Windows, so I don't know how painful it is
> what you describe.
>
> That, in particular, would be solved by having a somewhat recent  
> flash image like you mentioned earlier. What he's describing would  
> be akin to having to install Ubuntu Dapper and then having to patch  
> your way up to Feisty Fawn, or similar. Generally not a danger, but  
> it certainly takes a long time.
>

With the added joys of having to authenticate your software, download  
a new copy of dpkg/apt-get, reboot three times, re-authenticate your  
licence, phone Microsoft when you fail authentication, reboot and  
wait an hour while all the patches install.

Andy

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Message: 3
Date: Thu, 15 Feb 2007 18:41:20 +0000
From: Andy Mulhearn <unxmully at mac.com>
Subject: Re: [maemo-developers] Re: [maemo-users] 'Locking down'
	software	installation
To: Marius Vollmer <marius.vollmer at nokia.com>
Cc: maemo-users at maemo.org, maemo-developers at maemo.org
Message-ID: <B482686C-0DE8-415B-B5BA-AF4B0EFB216F at mac.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed

On 15 Feb 2007, at 16:39, Marius Vollmer wrote:

> "ext Andy Mulhearn" <unxmully at mac.com> writes:
>
>> I suppose that depends on how reliable is the incremental flash
>> process. If it's 100% then there should be no problems with what you
>> suggest.
>
> That's one thing that we have to figure out.

Non-trivial I suspect.

>
>> My only concern would be getting into a Windows XP-like situation
>> where you reinstall with XP SP1 becaude that's what came with your
>> system and then have to install SP2 and 100+ hotfixes to get back to
>> where you were.
>
> I have zero experience with Windows, so I don't know how painful it is
> what you describe.

Grim. One of the levels of hell.

Andy

------------------------------

Message: 4
Date: Thu, 15 Feb 2007 13:07:01 -0600
From: "Levi Bard" <taktaktaktaktaktaktaktaktaktak at gmail.com>
Subject: [maemo-developers] Re: [maemo-users] 'Locking down' software
	installation
To: "Marius Vollmer" <marius.vollmer at nokia.com>
Cc: maemo-users at maemo.org, maemo-developers at maemo.org
Message-ID:
	<1a3a3e310702151107g4670a111k4e452523914e165d at mail.gmail.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed

> In the future, we hope to be able to provide official updates to the
> operating system itself via packages, and we need to give the
> end-users the confidence that when they intend to install a Nokia
> provided operating system update, they actually get what they think
> they are getting.

Great!  It'll be great to escape the backup->flash->restore->reinstall cycle!

> This means that the Application Manager will not allow you to update
> individual OS packages (or to install third party applications that
> require this), since you would have to remove the meta package for
> that.  It is still possible to install additional 'system' packages,
> just not to upgrade already installed ones.
>
> A second new feature is that the Application Manager will distinguish
> between "trusted sources" and "non-trusted sources" (based on the key
> used to sign the corresponding repository).  A package that has
> originally been installed from a trusted source will only be allowed
> to be updated (or replaced) from a trusted source.  The flash image is
> also treated as a trusted source, so you will only be able to update
> packages that are pre-installed in the device from trusted sources.

IMO the second new feature makes the first one irrelevant.  Locking
the OS metapackage to exact versions of depended packages will cause
headaches for nokia, developers, and users.

Say you've just released an OS metapackage, maemo 3.1 sturgeon, and
then one the guys working on cairo makes a huge breakthrough in speed
and stability.  You want users to be able to upgrade, but now you have
to release a new OS metapackage to do so, so you either need to make
users wait for another "full" release, or release a new OS metapackage
whose only change is an upgraded cairo dependency.  This potentially
means a lot of frivolous new OS releases.

However, the "trusted source" feature means that you don't have to
worry about this.  If you release OS metapackage maemo-3.2007-sturgeon
with the *greater than or equal*-style dependencies, people can only
upgrade those packages from Nokia.  This means that users don't have
to worry about the potential of getting a broken cairo package from
Joe's Repo, and that you can release a new cairo package when it's
ready without having to worry about synchronizing with other packages'
releases, announcing a new OS release, etc.

> The meta package could depend on 'this version or later' of a package
> instead of on "exactly this version'.  That would allow it to control
> the update just as much, but would not lock down the configuration of
> the device so much.  The motivation for this lock-down of the device
> configuration is that Nokia (probably, IANAL) doesn't want to support
> any other configuration, and having to 'hack' your system via the
> red-pill mode or similar is a good indication that you are now on your
> own.

I am wholly in favor of this, as may be gathered from my previous
paragraph.  And the "trusted repository" scheme means that the device
is just as locked down for support purposes.

-- 
It doesn't take a nukular scientist to pronounce foilage!  --Marge Simpson
http://www.gnu.org/philosophy/shouldbefree.html

------------------------------

Message: 5
Date: Thu, 15 Feb 2007 13:08:50 -0600
From: "Levi Bard" <taktaktaktaktaktaktaktaktaktak at gmail.com>
Subject: Re: [maemo-developers] Re: [maemo-users] 'Locking down'
	software	installation
To: "Paul Klapperich" <maemo.org at bobpaul.org>
Cc: maemo-users at maemo.org, maemo-developers at maemo.org
Message-ID:
	<1a3a3e310702151108k34bd22fbu914ee4a31c7065d4 at mail.gmail.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed

> My thought is that it might be worthwhile to have a constant warning written
> at the bottom of the "Check for Updates" dialog in the Application manager.
> A user should really backup before any update, but prompting with a dialog
> that frequently will only encourage users to ignore it. Major updates should
> definitely come with a dialog, and as this occurs less frequently perhaps
> people might actually read it and heed the warning ;)

IMO a constant warning will become part of the scenery, and users will
forget about it, if indeed they notice it at all in the first place.

-- 
It doesn't take a nukular scientist to pronounce foilage!  --Marge Simpson
http://www.gnu.org/philosophy/shouldbefree.html

------------------------------

Message: 6
Date: Thu, 15 Feb 2007 21:38:29 +0200
From: Marius Vollmer <marius.vollmer at nokia.com>
Subject: [maemo-developers] Re: [maemo-users] 'Locking down' software
	installation
To: "ext Levi Bard" <taktaktaktaktaktaktaktaktaktak at gmail.com>
Cc: maemo-users at maemo.org, maemo-developers at maemo.org
Message-ID: <87d54bb496.fsf at nokia.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii

"ext Levi Bard" <taktaktaktaktaktaktaktaktaktak at gmail.com> writes:

> Say you've just released an OS metapackage, maemo 3.1 sturgeon, and
> then one the guys working on cairo makes a huge breakthrough in
> speed and stability.  You want users to be able to upgrade, but now
> you have to release a new OS metapackage to do so, [...]

Yes, and I actually see this as a feature, since there is no "apt-get
upgrade" functionality in the Application Manager.  Users would get
the newer vesion of cairo by accident, when they install or upgrade a
non-hidden package that depends on cairo.

Another example are security fixes: they too will require a meta
package.  I think the additional burdon to maintain this meta package
is not too high.

>> The meta package could depend on 'this version or later' [...]
>
> I am wholly in favor of this, as may be gathered from my previous
> paragraph.  And the "trusted repository" scheme means that the device
> is just as locked down for support purposes.

Not exactly: we do not only want to control which individual packages
you can install, but also which combinations.  Say there is a new
version of cairo, but we figure out that we also need to upgrade the
internet radio applet since it had a bug that--by chance--wasn't
triggered by the old version of cairo.  So we want to only support the
new cairo together with the new radio applet.

With a version locked meta package, we can make sure that the user
gets the right combinations of packages.

If you want to try out the new cairo anyway before Nokia releases the
official meta package that pulls it in, you can do that of course by
using apt-get or the red-pill mode.

------------------------------

Message: 7
Date: Thu, 15 Feb 2007 14:02:19 -0600
From: "Levi Bard" <taktaktaktaktaktaktaktaktaktak at gmail.com>
Subject: [maemo-developers] Re: [maemo-users] 'Locking down' software
	installation
To: "Marius Vollmer" <marius.vollmer at nokia.com>
Cc: maemo-users at maemo.org, maemo-developers at maemo.org
Message-ID:
	<1a3a3e310702151202t4804730dh6220029d9f1e4309 at mail.gmail.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed

> Yes, and I actually see this as a feature, since there is no "apt-get
> upgrade" functionality in the Application Manager.  Users would get
> the newer vesion of cairo by accident, when they install or upgrade a
> non-hidden package that depends on cairo.

Semi-related: how about an "Upgrade All" button on the "Check for Updates" page?

> Not exactly: we do not only want to control which individual packages
> you can install, but also which combinations.  Say there is a new
> version of cairo, but we figure out that we also need to upgrade the
> internet radio applet since it had a bug that--by chance--wasn't
> triggered by the old version of cairo.  So we want to only support the
> new cairo together with the new radio applet.
>
> With a version locked meta package, we can make sure that the user
> gets the right combinations of packages.

Wouldn't you just use standard dependencies for this?  Make the new
radio applet depend on the new cairo?

-- 
It doesn't take a nukular scientist to pronounce foilage!  --Marge Simpson
http://www.gnu.org/philosophy/shouldbefree.html

------------------------------

Message: 8
Date: Thu, 15 Feb 2007 21:15:18 +0100 (CET)
From: Uwe Koch <asys3 at yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: [maemo-developers] NX Client for Nokia 770/800
To: maemo-developers at maemo.org
Message-ID: <503035.59272.qm at web32712.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1

Hi again,

it seems that someone has already realized a lot:
http://www.simios.org/blog/everaldo

hope we can get the code.

Uwe

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